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just watching
Starting Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 07:46:07 AM
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time for the midseason "can they run the table" predictions. right now we have 6 teams left undefeated
large schools penfield - odds 80% - very solid squad, but some heavy hitters left on the schedule. went 5 with both schroeder and irondequoit and had tight matches with canandaigua and fairport
aquinas - (good call on this one hoser - i'm going to have to revise my sectional picks of b) - odds 75% - already went 5 with hac and mercy and have to beat them again and a decent mendon squad to end the season.
small schools lyons - odds 90% - only real test appears to be clyde-savannah who they went 5 with, but the rematch is in lyons
cuba-rushford - odds 99% - maybe cat little valley based on their first meeting, but i dont think so
alexander - odds 70% - if they can get past notre dame the odds shoot up to 100%
leroy - odds 70% - avon and notre dame should test them and cal-mum played them tight the first time
looking at last years thread . . . to pre answer the question, i'm only looking at regular season matches not tournaments
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Barre
Senior Member
227 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 08:11:07 AM
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Not sure about the others, but Penfield, Aquinas, and Cuba all already have losses pinned on them. All state (Maxpreps) and national (Prepvolleyball.com) organizations that track HS vball fully acknowledge tourney matches to at least two games as part of anyone's record. (1 game matches do not count.) If you mean undefeated in division play, ok, but just plain undefeated is another story and very difficult to do, especially if you get out to some of the more challenging tourneys.
Then again, you list Catt-LV as one of C-R's opponents and I don't think they are in same division, let alone same section, are they? |
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just watching
Starting Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 08:24:33 AM
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yeah yeah yeah i'm just talking little old section v best of 5 matches where teams are trying to win. not tournaments where coaches give playing time, experiment with line ups, etc. that's why i pre answered. i realize plain old never losing a game all season even in inter squad practice scrimmages is reserved for the edens of the world.
no cat-lv isn't in section v, but they have played c-r and will do so again |
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jet
Advanced Member
526 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 10:02:36 AM
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Well honestly I think this is a good topic of discussion. If we are going to be held accountable on Stats.....and we are trying to legitimize our sport......heck going to a true state Championship for Boys and Girls with most if not all girls sections participating I would think all sections should come to an agreement on what constitutes a win.
Just Watching, are you saying that (boys side) McQuaid, Frontier, Eden, Victor, OP, Canisius etc were just experimenting with line ups so actually the Mcquaid win over Victor, Frontier win over Mcquaid......or the Victor win over Frontier in their tourney doesn't count?
Was Penfield, Eden and Pitt Sutherland Girls experimenting with Line-ups and getting everyone playing time in the Finals of their tourneys recently?
REALLY?
When we have schools playing at Burnt Hills, Horseheads, St. Marys, Penfield etc tourneys.......teams travel across the state know full on that "we are just going for the experience and give equal playing time and change up line-ups.....knowing that winning doesn't matter because IT REALLY DOESN'T COUNT ANYWAYS.
Yes there is scarcasm......but in all seriousness I have not seen this approach in any of the teams or tourneys of high caliber in the past 15 years. Every quality tourney that I've ever witnessed and coached at ......especially playoffs has each team and player going full tilt. And I have never heard a coach say to their team.....eh don't worry it didn't really count and although we lost in 2 or 3 game we didn't REALLY lose to that team.
Now, absolutely we are all entitled to our interpretations and value of a tourney win or loss......but in Section VI boys if you lose a best of 3 with a deciding game in a tourney it is a loss.....and I sure did hear discussions of Victor and McQuaid winning or losing tourney matches.
National Standards? State Standards? Section Standards? East Podunk County Standards?
Which is it folks?
Everyone complains that this site is dead......well here is good topic to discuss.
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Barre
Senior Member
227 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 10:05:12 AM
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No offense meant. Didn't see that last line--sorry. And section V is hardly little in any way. Great vbal played here all the way around. Not sure if even Eden has had full undefeated season though. Burnt Hills might have in 2004. |
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section5
Junior Member
74 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 10:36:50 AM
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Being that varsity plays best of five matches, a best of 3 tournament "match" does not count towards a team's record. Also, tournament play doesn't count towards sectionals. Sure they provide bragging rights but that's it. |
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Kingofthehill
Senior Member
231 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 10:40:07 AM
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yeah- so the level of your undefeated season starts to take shape when you compare who you have won against. Yeah last year, Eden didn't have an undefeated season IF you count that tournament they went to in Jersey or PA or wherever it was because they lost one match there. But, didnt they essentially beat every team in NY that was a contender? Clearly the best team in the state last year didn't go undefeated.
Don't get me wrong, I love undefeated teams and the stories and everything, but relativity is important as well. I can take my D-League rec basketball team and go undefeated and win the championship against the other area rec D-league champs and still not be as good as teams who didn't finish undefeated in C-league let alone B and A. I know this isn't about who is better. But just throwing some more content into the mix about how important undefeated really is. So, is it? |
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vb_guy
Senior Member
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 10:43:57 AM
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I believe best of 3 tournament matches do count toward your record.
Could someone clarify though. Does it count as a match if you are playing 2 games of pool play with no opportunity for a game 3 on a split. I always thought that didn't count, but playoff matches that are best of 3 (or pool matches that are best of 3) do count.
Could some volleyball prophet enlighten me? |
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section5
Junior Member
74 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 10:53:38 AM
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Only a best of 5 match counts towards a team's record in Section V.
To include a best of 3 tournament match wouldn't that also mean that a team that wins both games (sets) of a pool play match should get a win? In both cases a team won 2 games (sets).
Looks like in Section VI they count tournament play.
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just watching
Starting Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 11:00:44 AM
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quote: Originally posted by jet
Just Watching, are you saying that (boys side) McQuaid, Frontier, Eden, Victor, OP, Canisius etc were just experimenting with line ups so actually the Mcquaid win over Victor, Frontier win over Mcquaid......or the Victor win over Frontier in their tourney doesn't count?
Was Penfield, Eden and Pitt Sutherland Girls experimenting with Line-ups and getting everyone playing time in the Finals of their tourneys recently?
REALLY?
When we have schools playing at Burnt Hills, Horseheads, St. Marys, Penfield etc tourneys.......teams travel across the state know full on that "we are just going for the experience and give equal playing time and change up line-ups.....knowing that winning doesn't matter because IT REALLY DOESN'T COUNT ANYWAYS.
especially playoffs has each team and player going full tilt.
yes really...now if youre talking gold playoff (or any playoff) results only then i would whole heartedly agree. i would say that we've reached a sad state of scholastic competition if all coaches took their cues from "high caliber programs" regarding playing time. granted a lot of coaches could take cues from these same coaches on how to coach. but seriously, you are going to keep your starting line up in during pool play so you go 6-0 instead of 5-1 or 4-2 and still make gold. that is my point. i agree that no coach/program with any aspirations of greatness would go to a tournament and say ok sally its your turn for your 50% of playing time. but hey what do i know, i've been out long enough maybe values have changed.
@kingofthehill - totally agree it's all about who you play. thats why i smile on the inside when those 17-1 teams lose in the first round of sectionals.
and to make all happy i'll officially retitle this thread - undefeated regular season non-tournament best 3 of 5 matches
oh by the way anyone want to comment on the teams that haven't lost a best 3 of 5 match? |
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Mike
Forum Admin
1025 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 12:39:35 PM
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quote: Originally posted by vb_guy
I believe best of 3 tournament matches do count toward your record.
Could someone clarify though. Does it count as a match if you are playing 2 games of pool play with no opportunity for a game 3 on a split. I always thought that didn't count, but playoff matches that are best of 3 (or pool matches that are best of 3) do count.
Could some volleyball prophet enlighten me?
Not sure who prophetic I am, but here is Section V's policy;
Matches played in tournaments which use the best 3 of 5 formats (up to 2 matches a day) will count for won/loss record and sectional seeding points. Matches played in tournaments which use the best 2 of 3 formats will not count for won/loss record or sectional seeding points.
Regular season matches played with Sections which use the best 2 of 3 formats during their season will count for won/loss record and sectional seeding points. When the match is played in their section the best 2 of 3 formats will be used. When the match is played in our section the best 3 of 5 formats will be used.
Maxpreps counts everything. Pool play, one game playoffs. Odd that one game to 25 has the same weight as a best of 5 match, but I suppose that's the only way there is to count tournament play.
--------------------- I must be getting old, I remember side out scoring. |
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Witt
Junior Member
82 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 1:21:26 PM
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Lyons also has rematches with Gananda and Williamson who are very solid teams. Lyons always does seem to find a way to win though. |
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otter6297
Senior Member
439 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 4:45:42 PM
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Let me temper jet's sarcasm a little... I have coached teams in the past that were undefeated in pool play and had clinched their gold seeding. In the final match of that pool I would rest players, experiment with line-ups or let some kids play positions they never would in a match that counted toward a record or toward seeding points.
In a small school like ours the extra playing time for reserves was more valuable real-time experience than finishing the pool 8-0 instead of 7-1 or 6-2... So yes there are times that coaches use tournaments to experiment or reward teammates because there is no real detriment to that individual loss.
It was not uncommon before Monroe County moved to the fall for some schools to have league matches only and play in three or more tournaments. They had actually played against 20-25 teams, but would have a record of 12-0 or 14-0... Undefeated team that lost a few rounds of pool play, but undefeated nonetheless by section 5 standards.
The section 5 standard is what it is... |
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jet
Advanced Member
526 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 5:37:18 PM
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No I never said that pool play counts for boys.......but for us any match that has a 2/3 with a deciding game does.......hence a possible 1/4, 1/2, Final most common in a 16 team tourney. Conceivably I could go 0-6 in pool play in every tourney and still be undefeated in my league . My point is that my Eden boys team is 10-2.....the two losses are to Frontier in the Finals of the Clarence tourney and 1/2's of the Eden tourney....both of which were best of 3. Otter, yes we all have been in that situation for pool play.....but we play hard to have that luxury and I don't count pool play wins nor does anyone here in the west. For sectional only points earned are our divisional wins......for me a possible 12 matches. All my tourney and non-league wins/losses don't count towards anything other than my overall record and growth of my teams. Just to clarify. Good stuff folks |
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are123
Junior Member
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 5:37:24 PM
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The measure of what constitutes a win is arbitrary. There are different standards in different areas. Best of 3 or best of 5? Game to 25 or 30? Do tournaments count?
I think what we want to do here is understand the relative quality of teams. We want to know who the best is. But really how are we going to do that? There are so many things to think about. In many sports, for example, point differential is a better predictor of success than won-loss record. Is the best team one that goes undefeated, or the team with one loss and a dominant point differential? Simply having an undefeated record does not settle the question of "who is better?"
So we should take a holistic approach when we are trying to answer this question (I think the answer can be "I don't know.") We should look at every action made by the teams in question and process those data and come up with an answer. I view all competition as an input to this calculation - tournaments, single matches, scrimmages, and even the results of the players in club season. Then, in what fashion did they get these results? Dominating? Just barely ahead? Just barely behind? Routed? What is the individual quality of the players that make up the team (i.e. who does a scout think is best "on paper")?
Different people will assign different weights to the information they have. This is valid because there is no way to know definitively whether one team is better than another when the teams are reasonably close in talent due to small sample problems (for ex: the 2010 NBA Cleveland Cavaliers were certainly better than the median quality ncaa basketball team from 2010, but we aren't sure whether or not they were better than the 2010 Boston Celtics.)
It's nice to have an undefeated record, but ultimately that means you were supreme in only one of the measures of quality. I think it's better to look behind a number like 38-0 or 23-0 or 18-1 (2007 New England Patriots record) or 315 (2007 New England Patriots record-setting regular season point differential) and understand what's really going on. |
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Mike
Forum Admin
1025 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2010 : 10:12:44 AM
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quote: Originally posted by otter6297
In the final match of that pool I would rest players, experiment with line-ups or let some kids play positions they never would in a match that counted toward a record or toward seeding points.
I remember some of those line-ups - a few of them were quite interesting to say the least.
--------------------- I must be getting old, I remember side out scoring. |
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statechamp8
Senior Member
302 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2010 : 11:31:16 PM
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I think that the state needs to make a decision on what all sections should be doing. With this year being the first "true" State Championship for boys every section should have the same rules as far is in game rules and what counts as a win or not... Also the state should make all sections play a best 3 of 5 games. I think the section 5 way is the right way... I have never understood why sections count tourney wins of 2/3 when in their own section they play a best of 5... I as a coach use tournaments many times to try to use different line ups in tourneys and try new things. I agree with JET that yes when my team is in the playoffs I play to win and might only play my best players in playoffs. But none of my teams have been the same team or play as well as they would at the end of a tourney as they would in a regualr season game.. kids are tired at the end of a tourney and its just simply a diff game then a regualr season game and a 2 out of 3 game is much diff then a 3 out of 5 game. No knock on Frontier at all but I dont ever see them beating a Mcquaid team in the regular season in a best of 5 game but in a tournament anything can happen, which makes tournaments so great I think for teams to participate in... The argument could go the other way as well as no other sport has "friendly" games. In basketball and soccer and hockey every tourney game counts pool play and playoffs. The one thing I would like to see be removed is if the jv team wins the first 2 u play a 3rd game for no reason... In what other sport at the jv level does a team play a game that means nothing... Also why isnt a jv game best 3 of 5 as well? No other sport shortens games or minutes because its JV... just another topic to stir up conversation.... |
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breeduma
New Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 06:47:31 AM
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First of all, I wish the State would come up with a consistent way to decide on wins/losses for seeding for sectionals. Section Vi counts their league only. Section V counts their overall (not tournament) record. I just like consistency when it counts.
On a different point, I truly feel that tournament 2/3 play should count in your overall record (not seeding for sectionals). Yes, many teams experiment with their line-ups in pool play. In pool play, when one plays 2 games, it should not count in one's record since there is not a deciding game opportunity. But, I totally agree with Jet. I think most coaches play to win in play offs and most the time, it is 2/3 match play.
I would not like to play best of five in tournaments if it meant playing fewer opponents. I like the fact that most tournaments offer the opportunity to play five different schools. I believe (could be wrong) we are limited to 15 games per day. This could really throw a monkey wrench in tournament scheduling.
I have lost in finals of a tournament this year and I am counting that loss in my overall record. It was a "creditable loss" and taught my team how to fight hard when they were tired against a formidable foe. We have also won in a tournament final, we fought hard and won! Tournament play teaches us so much about the game. Would a coach rather have a cheesy win or a competitive loss in one's record? Obviously, when it counts (Sectionals, Regionals, States) you want the win (and cheese is good). But, a well played loss can teach a team so much more early and mid season. It can be motivating and can increase our level of play so we are ready for play offs. That's why we play in tournaments. Sometimes it's survival of the fittest ...aerobic volleyball. But, it can also give a team the experience to work through the highs and lows that are characteristic of tournament play . Having an undefeated season is sweet. But anyone who has had one will agree with.... if you are going to have a loss, I would rather have it in a tournament final than in season play offs. It's like hitting a Mack truck!
I remember the very first State Championships in 1990. Sweet Home girls defeated Horseheads in the Finals. It was a very competitive match. Sweet Home went nuts and were so excited. But, I remember looking over at Horseheads and watching the tears and extreme disappointment on their faces. They had a great season but were ""only"" second in NYS. It was such a teachable moment to say to the winning team, "Remember this feeling....relish it". This is why you fight hard to finish and win. It's the feeling of accomplishment. It's euphoric! Hopefully it carries over to other life lessons.
There is only one team per Class that can finish their season with a win and that is the NYS Champion. Everyone else finishes their season with a loss. How you treat wins and losses builds character.
So, I say... count those tournament wins and losses. Hopefully, they teach how us to win when it "will" count.
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jet
Advanced Member
526 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 08:25:22 AM
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First of the State really doesn't understand nor really care about our sport......so we would be probably well advised to keep their noses out of it. If they had any foresight or care they would ahve the 4 representative from each section in the Bs for the boys meet for a state tourney.....like the A's instead of the anticlimatic.....drive 3 hours to play 1 match. When the state covers all or at least a little of the Boys teams cost for the State tourney.....maybe we can talk. |
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raider1
Senior Member
381 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 2:11:26 PM
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quote: Originally posted by vb_guy
I believe best of 3 tournament matches do count toward your record.
Could someone clarify though. Does it count as a match if you are playing 2 games of pool play with no opportunity for a game 3 on a split. I always thought that didn't count, but playoff matches that are best of 3 (or pool matches that are best of 3) do count.
Could some volleyball prophet enlighten me?
To answer vb_guy, for all national rankings, record-keeping, etc by the two most respected and universally accepted organizatios for prep vball, ESPN Rise and Prepvolleyball.com, ANY contest in which one team wins at least 2 games and where that team has an advantage (2-0 or 2-1), it is considered a win. Doesn't matter if it is in pool play or playoffs--it's a win. Conversely, any 1-0 or 1-1 contest is not recognized. Since pool wins and losses directly affect a team's playoff bracket placement, it is assumed that team is out to win all it can. Of course, when a team either has a pool sewn up or has already been knocked out by the last set, coaches may veer from a starting line-up; however, it is expected that he-she will just have to suck it up and take that loss too if it occurs. A loss is a loss, no matter who u put on the court. I've had that happen, even as recently as last year. No biggie. And in Section VI where we've made it a point to seek out great teams like Lancaster, frontier, st. Mary's, NT, and in past year's Sweet Home (not to mention all the teams in rochester and other parts of the state that we face in tourneys), we expect to get our share of losses. So what? I think I've only had one truly undefeated team in all my years of coaching, and that was 2002, which was not my best team. The fact that I'm not sure is some indication of its ultimate importance. Mot a whole lot as some have indicated already. Also, Sectional seeding consideration as a criterion is irrelevant since each section handles it differently. For instance, Section VI ONLY counts division matches when it adds up Power Points. No interdivisional or non-league matches count, best of 5 or no. Therefore, should we not "count" non-league matches with teams like Frontier, St. Marys and North Tonawanda just because the section doesn't acknowledge them?
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sectvbball44
Starting Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 3:05:19 PM
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quote: Originally posted by breeduma
First of all, I wish the State would come up with a consistent way to decide on wins/losses for seeding for sectionals. Section Vi counts their league only. Section V counts their overall (not tournament) record. I just like consistency when it counts.
On a different point, I truly feel that tournament 2/3 play should count in your overall record (not seeding for sectionals). Yes, many teams experiment with their line-ups in pool play. In pool play, when one plays 2 games, it should not count in one's record since there is not a deciding game opportunity. But, I totally agree with Jet. I think most coaches play to win in play offs and most the time, it is 2/3 match play.
I would not like to play best of five in tournaments if it meant playing fewer opponents. I like the fact that most tournaments offer the opportunity to play five different schools. I believe (could be wrong) we are limited to 15 games per day. This could really throw a monkey wrench in tournament scheduling.
I have lost in finals of a tournament this year and I am counting that loss in my overall record. It was a "creditable loss" and taught my team how to fight hard when they were tired against a formidable foe. We have also won in a tournament final, we fought hard and won! Tournament play teaches us so much about the game. Would a coach rather have a cheesy win or a competitive loss in one's record? Obviously, when it counts (Sectionals, Regionals, States) you want the win (and cheese is good). But, a well played loss can teach a team so much more early and mid season. It can be motivating and can increase our level of play so we are ready for play offs. That's why we play in tournaments. Sometimes it's survival of the fittest ...aerobic volleyball. But, it can also give a team the experience to work through the highs and lows that are characteristic of tournament play . Having an undefeated season is sweet. But anyone who has had one will agree with.... if you are going to have a loss, I would rather have it in a tournament final than in season play offs. It's like hitting a Mack truck!
I remember the very first State Championships in 1990. Sweet Home girls defeated Horseheads in the Finals. It was a very competitive match. Sweet Home went nuts and were so excited. But, I remember looking over at Horseheads and watching the tears and extreme disappointment on their faces. They had a great season but were ""only"" second in NYS. It was such a teachable moment to say to the winning team, "Remember this feeling....relish it". This is why you fight hard to finish and win. It's the feeling of accomplishment. It's euphoric! Hopefully it carries over to other life lessons.
There is only one team per Class that can finish their season with a win and that is the NYS Champion. Everyone else finishes their season with a loss. How you treat wins and losses builds character.
So, I say... count those tournament wins and losses. Hopefully, they teach how us to win when it "will" count.
would you be able to post the results of the warsaw tournament? what teams were there? |
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section5
Junior Member
74 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 12:06:52 AM
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Updated Section V rankings 1 Webster Schroeder - Beat Sutherland and Penfield 2 Pittsford Sutherland - beat Penfield in BH tournament 3 Penfield 4 West Irondequoit 5 Canandaigua 6 Hilton 7 Aquinas 8 Fairport 9 Brockport 10 Pittsford Mendon
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Edited by - section5 on 10/06/2010 12:14:10 PM |
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Pittsford
Starting Member
161 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 07:55:06 AM
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Interesting... dont remember rankings change in middle of week lol
Great match I heard last night for Webster! |
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ljackson
Starting Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 08:18:44 AM
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What are these rankings based on? Why is Fairport highter than Brockport for example?
Lisa Jackson |
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section5
Junior Member
74 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 08:53:23 AM
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Schedule strength. |
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volleydad
New Member
38 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 09:09:34 AM
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Congratulations to Aquinas, a solid win over Mercy last night and it looks like the only undefeated team left in the large schools. |
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