no line judges

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13 years 2 months ago #30722 by vball0304
no line judges was created by vball0304
Has anyone else had this problem????????? Been to two matches this season, the refs have done a great job on watching the lines, BUT they have seemed to forgotten that they also need to watch the net for touches!!!!! The refs say that the teams are suppose to be honorable, please tell me what team ( if any) will be honest to give away a point on a touch???
None that I know of!

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13 years 2 months ago #25259 by rochvball
Replied by rochvball on topic no line judges
A lot of teams make honor calls when it comes to touching the ball on a spike.

Remember that most nets are not nets.

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13 years 2 months ago #25260 by Lancer
Replied by Lancer on topic no line judges
Most teams of any championship ilk will call touches on the ball, few call "nets" that are missed by the refs. Those inadvertant nets have no effect on the play anyway. I do not understand the rationale to eliminate lines people. Ridiculous ! They play an important role and their absence will be missed when you need them the most !

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13 years 2 months ago #25261 by mwoo2
Replied by mwoo2 on topic no line judges
Where are lines people being eliminated? I have never heard of such a thing and I think if it is happening, it is bad precident to be setting. Honor calls are a respectable and (pardon the wording) honorable part of the game. I agree with Lancer that any team with positive character will call their own block touches but net touches are up to the officials.

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13 years 2 months ago #25262 by Vballobserver
Replied by Vballobserver on topic no line judges
I'm just happy if the JV players calling lines pay attention to the line calls. They usually seem pretty distracted out there. I have little or no expectations that the lines people will see or call touches.

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13 years 2 months ago #25263 by raider1
Replied by raider1 on topic no line judges
This will run contrary to what most think on the subject but I am happy to see the removal of unpaid, unofficial linespeople at the scholastic level--would like to see it at the club level as well. Football doesn't have its JV players take on the sideline judge duties, does it? Basketball has only two refs who must run down and observe all that takes place on a court much bigger than a vball court. And they have to see any foot that steps on a line or who touches what ball last before it goes out of bounds, in addition to making 3-second, traveling, double-dribble, and foul calls all game long. Why don't we put a kid on each corner of the basketball court to help them with touches and feet out-of-bounds? And honor calls? Name me another sport (with umpires, refs, etc.) that demands that kids or coaches make honor calls. There are difficult, split-second calls in every sport: referees are trained and paid to make them. Period. Kids are trained to play the sport to the best of their ability, not to do the refs' job or to unfairly take the onus of a critical call onto their own shoulders.

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13 years 2 months ago #25264 by Linda
Replied by Linda on topic no line judges
A few years ago, we (Finger Lakes volleyball) went through a couple of seasons without line judges and there were many missed net violations. The 2nd referee had to follow the ball to the lines and therefore wasn't able to watch the blockers long enough.

Unlike football officials, our referees don't follow the players down the field. As responsible coaches, it's our job to train our players to pay attention and make decisive calls. It may be intimidating for some & maybe they're not the ones that should be put in that position. We make sure the players that perform that duty are competent. And that may mean there are only certain ones that do the lines.

All I know is that after evaluating the no linesmen seasons, all the coaches felt the occasional "controversial" calls by the player far out weighed the the importance of officials not having that duty.

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13 years 2 months ago #25266 by Witt
Replied by Witt on topic no line judges
I seem to do a pretty good job making every call all by myself in practice, and Im usually not even on a ladder :)

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13 years 2 months ago #25267 by bystander
Replied by bystander on topic no line judges
There are a few sections in New York that don't use lines people at all. The AD's feel that it's too much responsibility for a 13-14 year old. I for one like the use of lines people, but have worked without.
In basketball, MOST officials can move to get a better look at the lines to see if someone is out of bounds. If a volleyball official moves...they fall off the stand! [:D]
Witt...coaches never miss any calls...So they say![;)]

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13 years 2 months ago #25268 by VBCoach
Replied by VBCoach on topic no line judges
Section 3 in the Syracuse area has removed linesmen for a few years now, as a coach and a ref who has participated in matches in the area, i can tell you, this is not the way to go. As an official you take your eye off the net to make a line call (ist or 2nd ref) and end up missing the net call. As a coach i have always encouraged my players (and myself when i play) to do the right thing and make the honor calls. You will be surprised how many times we get cheers and compliments from parents, coaches and officials for teaching ethics as part of our instruction.

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13 years 2 months ago #25269 by OP
Replied by OP on topic no line judges
We will give honor calls. Only early in the match, when we have big leads or BLATANT touches. Once we are in the finals or sectionals we tend to let the volleyball gods decide to even it out, unless again it is just BLATANT! I do not expect to get honor calls from other teams yet sometimes we get them. We need those kids trained and on the lines. Tennis is all honor calls by the way. Can't really compare sport to sport. It is a tough tough discussion and problem. I agree with everyone to some extent. [xx(]

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13 years 2 months ago #25270 by hoser
Replied by hoser on topic no line judges
Well I went to a high school game last night. The 1st official began calling net contacts which we know is the 2nd official's job (and the 2nd official is a highly respected local college coach to boot). Therefore, he had difficulty following the flight of the ball (the 1st official's job), and relied heavily on the line judges who were not perfectly attentive. Some of the line judges' calls were questionable, but the good news was that it did not affect the outcome of the game.

I've also been to games where I've seen the local AD chastise the officials for over-ruling and not over-ruling the lines judges on in/out calls. Did I say they did it vehemently. Despicable given who they are. And we've all been to games (club or high school) where the line judge's call has been verbally questioned by players, coaches and yes, you the parents/fans. Hey she's only 14 folks.

It is my understanding that certain ADs and AD League Officials want to eliminate the player line judges in Section V. In fact there had been some back and forth in Syracuse-area volleyball about this as well. I have no idea what the Officials' Boards think about that.

In the last couple of years, and excuse me if I confuse NCAA (high school rules) and Club (USA) rules, there has been a tendency to not call net contacts if away from the play. I'm sure I worded that poorly and maybe VBCoach can clarify that a little. What I've encountered lately is only certain net violations being called such as touching it on the way up/down for the block or when attacking the ball. In any event, it would seem then that there is an ever so slow move toward minimizing net violations. This might then lead to the elimination of player line judges as there is less emphasis on certain net contacts, allowing the officials to watch the ball a little more.

I've always been a proponent of line judges just because some of the officials in the league I've coached in didn't always follow the ball (of course I agree with Linda that many didn't watch the net either). However, I've changed my tune over the last 3 years or so and TEND to agree with the latter part of raider1's point that:
"Kids are trained to play the sport to the best of their ability, not to do the refs' job
OR TO UNFAIRLY TAKE THE ONUS OF A CRITICAL CALL ONTO THEIR OWN SHOULDERS."
The players shouldn't have the burden of making such crucial calls. And when they make the call in a decisive manner they, still, sometimes take flak for it.

It's not that they aren't trained, they are (though some have poor attention spans). It's not that they aren't paid, they're not. It's a question of officiating falling onto an impressionable novice's shoulders. Here's where I'm a little torn. We can make good arguments that being in that position has some value: it toughens the player, teaches them responsibility, teaches them attentiveness and decisiveness, and even to deal with conflict (heaven forbid). Those are good arguments; which is why I only TEND to agree the other way that player line judges should be used. Obviously I'm wishy washy on the subject.

If that's the case and we continue to use player line judges, then PAY THEM. Otherwise, let the PAID Officials do what they're paid to do and eliminate the players line judges. Perhaps this could be done on a 1 year trial basis and then a vote could be set up for all Section V coaches. Ironically we can argue about this just as people argue about the line judges' calls. But a trial basis and a vote could be more determinative with majority rule. Maybe a vote could be had every 2 years thereafter. Just some thoughts.

“If you don't invest very much, then defeat doesn't hurt very much and winning is not very exciting.â€￾ Dick Vermeil

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13 years 2 months ago #25271 by OP
Replied by OP on topic no line judges
$$$$$$ is a huge issue. If the intent is to eliminate line judges so we get officials on the lines, that would be a problem. I have chirped in because whatever happens on your side(girls) will spill over into our side (boys). On the boys side we understand the pros and cons. Our game is way to fast to move the kids off the lines. You would be hard pressed to find boys coaches that agree to pull those judges off the lines (in section 6). If you decide to go for it I hope it is clear that this is a girls volleyball issue. I know that's why its in this forum. But don't think for a second that what you guys do doesn't affect us eventually.

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13 years 2 months ago #25272 by OP
Replied by OP on topic no line judges
$$$$$$ is a huge issue. If the intent is to eliminate line judges so we get officials on the lines, that would be a problem. I have chirped in because whatever happens on your side(girls) will spill over into our side (boys). On the boys side we understand the pros and cons. Our game is way to fast to move the kids off the lines. You would be hard pressed to find boys coaches that agree to pull those judges off the lines (in section 6). If you decide to go for it I hope it is clear that this is a girls volleyball issue. I know that's why its in this forum. But don't think for a second that what you guys do doesn't affect us eventually.[:X]

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13 years 2 months ago #25273 by vball712
Replied by vball712 on topic no line judges
Not sure what the answer is but money is not the solution. We have seen paid officials make bad calls on the line too. Just as we have seen players in the down ref position being harassed and abused by coaches, parents and sometimes even opposing players, sad to say. Also have seen plenty of errors with scoring (cell phone texting going on under the scoring table at Qualifiers instead of paying attention!) which is probably why fans feel the need to "help keep score"! There will always be mistakes made but in general, having line judges is better than not having them.

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