Club Tryouts--Unethical?

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10 years 8 months ago #31448 by Responsible
Club Tryouts--Unethical? was created by Responsible
<font color="navy">Does it worry anyone else the way certain club(s) in this area are putting threatening pressure on kids?</font id="navy">

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10 years 8 months ago #28683 by Hoser 1
Replied by Hoser 1 on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
"threatening pressure" - could you be more specific please...?

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10 years 8 months ago #28684 by Responsible
Replied by Responsible on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
Now, this has not happened with my daughter, but I have witnessed firsthand, and was told by other parents, how coaches have been acting over the past couple of weeks during tryouts. My knowledge is really only based on one club (the rest may be hearsay), but I know that coaches have called kids multiple times, pressuring them to make a decision, they have told kids that if they leave without committing right then, they would not get a spot on the team they are trying out for (whereas they would have a spot if they stayed), they have spoken poorly about other clubs in the area, and a girl was even told that there would be "repercussions" in high school if she didn't choose a particular club.

I just think we should give all the facts and then allow the girls (with the help of parents of course) to make decisions. They should not feel the pressure that they are feeling, especially when they (or us, the parents) are willing to spend so much money for the product. At the end of the day, what are we truly teaching our children if this is how the adults act?

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10 years 8 months ago #28685 by chanthavisouk
Replied by chanthavisouk on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
I do worry. I can't say that I'm surprised with your post or this thread. The competition for good players and their parents' dollars has increased. I guess that's good thing, competition, it should make the level of volleyball better in the area. What I don't like hearing about is how it seems some coaches are leveraging club and HS volleyball. They shouldn't be in competition with each other for bodies or money. It's seems pretty hard to separate the two when you have people involved with both out of practicality and necessity. I guess if you don't like you can always take your money somewhere else, right? Maybe when people stop giving them money and bringing their kids, they'll wise up. That seems to be the only way to get your point across these days. Because heaven forbid someone actually document this properly and confront the individual involved or take it higher after option 1 fails. Not sure what option 2 would be, because most of the people on WEVA might be the same people you're fighting.

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10 years 8 months ago #28686 by hoser
Replied by hoser on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
"At the end of the day, what are we truly teaching our children if this is how the adults act?"
Good question. Ask yourself this one as well: Are we teaching our children, despite the perception (witness) of ethical misconduct, it doesn't matter because we continue to have our children be a part of such an atmosphere? Isn't it the same as condoning the act?



“If you don't invest very much, then defeat doesn't hurt very much and winning is not very exciting.â€￾ Dick Vermeil

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10 years 8 months ago #28687 by Responsible
Replied by Responsible on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
"Ask yourself this one as well: Are we teaching our children, despite the perception (witness) of ethical misconduct, it doesn't matter because we continue to have our children be a part of such an atmosphere? Isn't it the same as condoning the act?"

That's exactly what it's doing. What is scaring and/or convincing other parents to stay? The thought of their kid potentially not getting a scholarship? Them potentially playing for a "less skilled" team? What's keeping them in that environment and who is ultimately making that decision?

Please do not assume that because I have seen this firsthand and speaking up about it, that I allowed my daughter to stay.

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10 years 8 months ago #28688 by hoser
Replied by hoser on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
Sorry, wasn't assuming you specifically, rather, asking the question as a generality to everyone (probably should have meant "you" plural).

This year a new rule applies for WEVA. And please correct me if I am mistaken - a club cannot collect money from a player/parent until on or after 11/1/11. In other words, the collection or payment of the money is the contract. A verbal response is not indicative of a contract to play for a particular club until payment is made (again, on or after 11/1/11); so, theoretically, one could give a verbal commitment to Club A, try out for Club B and then pay Club B (the membership/Club fee) making them a member of that organization.

“If you don't invest very much, then defeat doesn't hurt very much and winning is not very exciting.â€￾ Dick Vermeil

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10 years 8 months ago #28689 by vb101
Replied by vb101 on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
Don't really know what pull a scholarship would have in Rochester? Most of the talented girls are already known quantities and playing for one or another club won't make much of a difference.

Kind of a lot of parity in coaching hereabouts too, only a few coaches hereabouts can really improve players drastically.

Truly what the area needs is more strong teams, not less; so that travel will cost less. I recall a local club from a few years ago, where all the best local players congregated, their players told themselves they were the best, their coaches told themselves and their kids that they were the best; and the parents pounded their chests with pride and arrogance.

The kids who got scholarships almost always went to mid majors or lower and very rarely got treated as they expected to be. They were the local cream of the crop and locally won without much effort, but outside the NorthEast found things much more difficult.

Unfortunately, the jist was this situation gave Rochester a bad reputation for a few years (our players were labelled as uncoachable and had their noses in the air, or @ least so many college coaches thought)

This is not to say this doesn't happen everywhere though, it does.

For Rochester to improve the region, tho, we need to produce more quality players, playing on more and varied teams (not put all the superstars on one team). When that happens, we'll become a stronger region.

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10 years 8 months ago #28690 by chanthavisouk
Replied by chanthavisouk on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
I think everyone has a take on building volleyball up in Buffalo and Rochester and there are certainly enough talented personnel to do it. What's missing is the collective thinking regarding getting kids to start playing at a younger age. If you want it to grow you gotta start young, that's why I enjoy working with the little kids. I enjoy working with my college just as much, but the little kids in primary school are the ones that will sustain the ranks. In that respect, we need to a better job policing ourselves, and not get bent out of shape when other people call us out on it.

I just hope that more people realize that accepting crummy behavior begets crummy behavior. You don't have to put up with it. Go somewhere else. There are number of clubs in the area that can provide the club experience you desire.

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10 years 8 months ago #28691 by otter6297
Replied by otter6297 on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
If there is first hand knowledge of any club demanding decisions from players or threatening them with 'repercussions' then it should be brought to the attention of WEVA who can assign the issue to the WEVA Ethics & Eligibility Committee.

The committee is made up of junior club representatives that look into complaints and decide if any person/coach/club is violating by-laws or the "Spirit of WEVA". Obviously reps are excused from the process if the issue involves their club. It is a way for clubs to govern themselves.

At the very least I am sure the WEVA board would like to know what is going on with the kids in our region... If it is all for the best interests of kids, then the region wins. If it is in the best interest of a coach, a HS program or of a specific club, then shame on the adults...

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10 years 8 months ago #28692 by vball05
Replied by vball05 on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
There are a few issues and arguments going on here in the Rochester club scene. Here's what I see...

First, there's the line of thought over whether it's better to have multiple clubs to "split up" the talent thus making it more competitive in local tournaments when local clubs compete. On the other side, some believe it would decrease the chances of competing well in travel tournaments when the talent gets divided. For the girls clubs, obtaining a BID to nationals would become more difficult as they need to win their region to get in. For boys clubs, competing at National's would become harder as the talent is divided. Surely there's a lot more going on here, but this is one issue.

Solution: Both sides have good arguments, seems to me it's an issue of short term loss for possible long term gain (i.e. more quality clubs=more opportunities for kids to play=should raise the level of play in the future?? Yet splitting up the talent does make teams less competitive nationally (it's hard to argue against that))

Next, the issue of directors or coaches persuading or baiting certain players to play for their club and using threat to possibly not "save them a spot" or have other repercussions. It seems as though club season is "starting" earlier and earlier each season as clubs try to one-up each other. Kids are forced to make a decision on where they will play months before a club tournament starts. Coaches are going after young boys and girls as if they're highly sought after D-I recruits. Surely everyone in the club scene is competitive and wants good talent, but some rules and regulations need to be enforced before it gets out of hand.

Solution: WEVA needs to do a better job of enforcing some rules and take some action. "Clubs" (and parents who financially support clubs) must pay WEVA fees to have an organization in the region. Thus, WEVA needs to do something about this before it gets too out of hand. One major issue I see is that the Rochester volleyball community is so small that the same people who are involved in WEVA are also involved in clubs, officiating, and have ties to individuals around town. Therefore, there needs to be separation between those involved in WEVA and everything else. There ought to be rules limiting when clubs can hold tryouts, which is fair to the other clubs and most importantly the kids who play the sport.

All in all, it's nice to see Rochester volleyball growing. There are a number of quality girls clubs around town, and now 2 competitive boys clubs. The more opportunities the better, but with that come a major problem too--there's always going to be a select group of kids who are the "best" at each age level and all the clubs will surely want those players to play for them. Something needs to be done...

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10 years 8 months ago #28693 by vb101
Replied by vb101 on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
The recruiting angle in junior girls volleyball club has been around for some time. Each state, each region, sees some version of it. It gets ugly and personal at some times, so feelings get hurt.
People want their people around them, whatever the case may be.

Locally, though, the girls scene is vastly different from the boys. Our local Rochester based girls club teams have never really made much of a stir Nationally. Our boys have had some pretty successful seasons, going deep into open at Nationals. Our Rochester girls, I could be wrong, have only ever had one team make it to the Open level and half of that team was from Buffalo.

That squad did see some of those girls get pretty good scholarships, but those good scholarships would have been coming those girls way even if they hadn't been on that club. They were known entities on d1 coaches radar for a long, long time.

For a Rochester all star team to actually do some future damage would be incredibly expensive. Most of the girl elite programs in the US practice 3-4 days a week and put in 12-16 hours a week practicing, just trying to find a place to do that in Rochester would be very difficult.

Then in order to find the competition necessary to make our girls improve would necessitate crazy travel. Remember to become great you have to play the great and although cupcakes are sweet and nice to eat (easy wins), they are also unsubstantial (don't make you stronger). They'd have to hit the hotbeds: a trip to Chicago, a trip or two to Texas and a trip to Las Vegas and then to Cali would probably be necessary.

That could be fun, but it would be expensive. Economically, if the local play was better, this expense could be curtailed. So, yes, take the best volleyball teachers in the area and have them work with a large talent pool of 5th - 9th graders and then build from the youth and create a stronger area. Grassroots is where most of the current hot bed areas built themselves.

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10 years 8 months ago #28694 by otter6297
Replied by otter6297 on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
The start dates, payment dates that Hose referred to, and WEVA code of conduct was recently updated and published on the WEVA website... it governen and how often coaches can 'recruit kids that were not part of their club. It also states that clubs cannot collect club fees until November 1... it was put in specifically to prevent clubs from pressuring kids/families to commit.

AGAIN, if a club is violating the spirit of we a by pressuring kids or threatening repercussions bring the info to WEVA and allow their joint ethics committee to look into it.

Otherwise this is just another rumor of what we 'heard or 'think is happening...

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10 years 8 months ago #28695 by Lancer
Replied by Lancer on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
The WEVA by-laws do not specifically state when a player is committed to a particular club for the season. One must assume it would be when a dues payment is actually made on or after Nov. 1st. Players may or may not have a roster spot still waiting for them if they elect to go elsewhere, but they cannot be penalized if they elect to explore their options before their "purchase".

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10 years 8 months ago #28696 by VBall6
Replied by VBall6 on topic Club Tryouts--Unethical?
VB101 there were 2 teams that qualified for Open from Rochester. Those teams each had 2 girls from Buffalo on them. Those teams also qualified when there was 1 National Championship. Today there is a diluted National picture since the JDVA came on the scene. Nationals no longer include some of the best clubs from around the country as they participate in the JDVA.
I also believe that those girls developed because of their club coaching and their exposure to the level of play outside the region, they were recognized by D1 programs by participating at a high level on the National stage.

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